Strange Nature | A Sasquatch in Wyoming
What’s out there? Can you be sure it was just a bear? Do your doubts tug at your rationale?
See, there are so many eerie things lurking in the wild. Here, in Wyoming’s remote Wind River Mountains, stories have persisted for hundreds of years.
In this episode, we’re going to hear a firsthand account of something strangely unexplainable. Something we’ve heard folklore about for centuries: the Sasquatch.
One of Gigi’s photos from that day in the Winds.
Links from this episode:
Music is Awoke, Halloween Beat, Dark Woods Underscore, I Have Sinned, Waiting, and Playing in Color, from Pixabay.com
Dickinson Creek Campground, taken by Gigi the night before the encounter. Visit her photography website for more incredible photos in wild places.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Gigi Holley 0:08
And I'm like, Okay, well, I gotta make a decision. Either I get down there and I get past it. And it's still very far from the trail. But it's close enough that I'm like, like, this is weird. By the time I get down there, it could be down, you know, closer to the trail, if I lose sight of it, like I don't, I don't know. So I'm like trying to make a decision, like, do I just turn around and go back? Or do I just keep going and I just keep going, because that's me. I had my dog, everything's gonna be fine. So I start heading down the switchbacks trying to keep my eye on it, lose, lose sight of it. I get down to the like the corduroy road. And it's standing there.
Kris Hampton 1:05
What is it that's out there? Can you be sure it was just a bear? Do your doubts tug at your rationale? See, there are so many eerie things lurking in the wild. And here in Wyoming's remote Wind River Mountains, stories have persisted for hundreds of years. Today, we're going to hear a firsthand account of something strangely unexplainable. I'm Kris Hampton, you're listening to Strange Nature from Plug Tone Outdoors.
Gigi Holley 1:57
This is the first spring I have been out on the Bears Ears trail through Dickinson Park. And I had been up there a week before because I heard the road was terrible. So I had driven up there just to drive on the road to make sure I could get back there for a backpacking trip. The last thing I want to do is pack everything up and get halfway down the road and not be able to go any further. So I checked the road out a week before and everything was great. I think I saw a bear that day.
Kris Hampton 2:28
Were you going to be camping up there? Were you staying up there for a while?
Gigi Holley 2:31
Yeah, I think that trip I had planned three nights backpacking solo with my dog, Remy. That's not how it turned out. But I had the availability to stay out there three nights.
My name is Gigi Holley, and I'm originally from Michigan. I've been in Lander about 10 years. I thought I maybe wanted to be a NOLS instructor. But I came here to take courses at CWC and get credits through a NOLS course.
So I'm driving up there to go camping. This is the camping drive. And I'm driving up there. And it's pretty early. It's early June, maybe mid June. It's a long road in. I don't know how familiar you are with the road in but it's a decent long dirt road in there. And going up there, I only saw one vehicle. It was coming out - it was a big camper. I get up there and there's like a split to go to the trailhead, and then you go straight to get to the campground. And I had gone into the trailhead parking and nobody had been there. And I thought what the heck, I'll just come out and I'll go stay at the campground for the night and nobody was there either. So I didn't see a single person that night.
In the morning I drove over to the trailhead, and there was actually a Forest Service guy up there. Really nice old man and we just chatted about the owl that I heard last night and he like tried to pick it out on his phone for me. And he went and checked the register book. And he said are you sure you want to go back there alone? Nobody else is back there. There was a couple back there like a couple days ago, but they already signed out. Like I don't do you really want to go back in there alone? And I'm like, definitely. Like, that's the exact way I like to go camping with nobody else that I will see. So he left and I started backpacking.
Kris Hampton 5:13
Now, let's be clear. Gigi isn't a rookie, she spent a lot of time outdoors in the mountains often solo. And she knows these mountains, the Winds particularly well. These days, she spends a lot of her time shooting wildlife and landscapes and has traveled extensively to outdoor destinations. So, she's not some random tourist who picked a spot on a map app and went for a hike. Far from it.
Gigi Holley 5:45
I got seven miles in and that's just passed the Bears Ears formation. After Adams pass, you start to go down like a little bit of switchbacks. And you can see I think they call it a Corduroy road where it's like made out of railroad ties and it goes over like a swampy area. And you're going down some switchbacks on the trail to that. There's still lots of snow up there. And there's this big large snow drift with a cornice, like hanging out over this snow melt pond. And there's a little saddle north of the trail. And I see this big thing moving running down the saddle towards the trail. And I'm I'm gonna stop and wait and see where it goes. Because I don't know what that is. But it's either a bear or moose in my head.
Kris Hampton 6:43
Both of which are much larger than you.
Gigi Holley 6:45
Right! And it's very dark in color. Like it is like black thing running down this hill, like loping, and I'm like, Whoa. So this thing runs down and gets near the water. And I'm just gonna sit here and watch it because I didn't want to drop in and not be able to see it because of the willows. So I was just gonna watch it, see where it goes and see what happens because I know animals like to use trails sometimes because it's easier. And I was like, great is it gonna come like walking up this trail, a little nervous. And I have my dog with me and he doesn't notice it. And we're really far away at this point. Like I like I can't tell what it is. I sit there and I'm watching it for like 20 minutes and it's doing weird things. It comes down to to the lake and the lake kind of has like this beachy area. And it comes down to and it's just like hanging out by the beach, like kind of getting up moving into the willows coming back to the beach. And then at one point, it jumps in the lake and it just swims a lap. And I'm, I'm I think I was actually wearing this exact shirt. So like I'm in a tank top. But I've been stopped for 20 minutes and I'm cold. Like I was like a little sweaty, a little hot walk in. I'm a hot person. And I am getting cold like sitting there cooling off winds blowing. I'm like, ooh, it's chilly. It's coming off the snow. And it gets out. And it doesn't really get out it kind of comes to the outlet. And it starts walking down the river. And I'm just like, Okay, that's a really big thing. I can see its head over the willows. I am high so that was helpful for the perspective. But the river turns and comes towards me so I can see it come up the river. And it it just starts like playing in the river. And it's like hopping back and forth. Just seems like it's like playing. And I'm like, What is going on? What's going on? Did I need to keep walking, I'm getting cold and like, I don't know what's going on. And but I'm still like so intrigued that I can't. I can't like I'm just gonna watch it. And I'm watching it and I get some good photos. Well, as good as you can get on a phone. I didn't have my camera back then. And then it walks back through the river back to the beach, and is just hanging out.
Kris Hampton 9:12
Now, I've seen these photos, have them actually and I'll put a few of them up on our website. They're about what you'd expect from a cell phone from a distance. I mean, how many times have you pulled out your phone to take a photo of something exciting, only to realize that on the screen, it's just a tiny dot the distance a lot. Be honest, there are probably about 700 of those in your phone right now. Anyway, a couple of these images, one in particular of this thing standing in the river is pretty compelling. It definitely looks like the classic image of Sasquatch that we've all seen from the famous Patterson Gimlin film, darkened color, big standing on two legs with a long head that tapers right into the shoulders. No real neck to speak of. And some of the photos of this creature on the beach. Well, there's another dark figure there. That's moving from frame to frame.
Gigi Holley 10:17
I can't tell if that's the shadow. Part of my theory is maybe it has a baby.
Kris Hampton 10:22
Yeah, it looks like another one laying there.
Gigi Holley 10:24
Yeah. But I mean, if the had a small one around it, I couldn't see that one near as well. You mean, you see how far away I am? It's pretty far. But you know, it's moving. And there's something there. Like, I'm not too crazy.
Kris Hampton 10:41
There's something there. There's something there. There's absolutely no question that there's something there, standing on two legs with a distinctly humanoid shape. What it is, I have no idea. But it's there. And this is by no means the first time that there's been something there in the wilds of Wyoming. In fact, if you're digging into the search for Sasquatch, there's a name that will most definitely keep coming up - John Mionczynski. John lives just outside of Lander in a cabin he built with his own two hands, and is nearly as enigmatic as this North American ape, as he calls it. John has become one of the leading experts on this creature, and for good reason. He's a wildlife biologist who's worked extensively with bighorn sheep, first hired by the Forest Service in the 70s for radio telemetry studies, the first of their kind. And in the 90s. His work led to a landmark discovery of why the sheep herds were dying off. He's revered for his knowledge of the outdoors, particularly around Wyoming where he knows many of the most remote parts of the state, perhaps better than any other human. He's eccentric, to be sure, but he's gentle, kind, quiet. And the guy definitely knows what he's talking about when it comes to the Wind River Mountains. In the early 1970s, He also participated in the inter agency grizzly bear study team as it was known, live trapping Grizzlies to affix radio collars to them and then tracking them around Yellowstone. So maybe most important for our story. He understands the behavior of bears, pretty darn well. See, in 1972, John was camping alone in the winds just up and across the mountains from where Gigi was, he had taken with him a tent that had a bacon grease stain on it, so he expected that he might get a visit from some wildlife. This was before bear spray, so he came armed with cayenne pepper, and a 357 Magnum.
John Mionczynski 13:11
Almost a full moon I can't remember if it was waxing and waning but it was nearly a full moon there's no wind. I was in that on the edge of a forest, Pine Grove. So the moonlight was coming right onto the east side of the tent.
Kris Hampton 13:28
That is John Mionczynski in a bit of an impromptu telling of his story to my friends at the Dear Lander podcast earlier this year.
John Mionczynski 13:38
I hear this breathing sound and it's the sound and animal coming close and it came by the tent. I can see the shadow it was probably three feet three and a half feet high, perfect for bear silhouette. And when it started impressively pushing its nose and I hit it and yelled really loud. And it backed off. We were right behind to the doghair pine, short, very close together pine trees. You cannot see through it in the daylight but whatever this was what around it and behind it and stayed there and I could hear it breathing, it was kind of like snoring sounds, deep, rumbling sound you'd expect from somebody snoring except was also like a cat purring in snoring. The exhale the inhale and extremely slow breathing like four breaths a minute. That's my first question mark. Why is it there breathing the slow? It came back in about 20 minutes or so. I could hear it approaching with that breathing. So, at its furthest point, it's probably 25 feet away. And then at closest point, it was two feet from my ear on the other side of the nylon tent poked its nose and I hit made a loud noise and it ran back behind the doghair pine.
The third time it was no longer three and a half feet high, quadra-ped silhouette. It was something walking on two legs, and it's shadow was above the tent.
It's over the top of the tent. So maybe this is a bear is standing up on two legs which bears can do. But it's also walking on two legs, which black bears don't generally do, I was confused. It was standing up and moving and walking outside of the tent, and there's another indentation on the side of the tent. So I felt compelled to hit it again. And this time I hit something hard as a rock. In that exact moment, the shadow appeared on the top of the tent. You could see a hand with the, it looked like the shape of the human hands and a post but it was twice the size of my hand almost very thick fingers hair between the fingers and I can see the silhouette I'd like a fraction of a second to see all of this because it collapsed the elbow my ankles. And then whatever this animal was landed on my legs and then got up and ran up behind those trees. And tent was destroyed the aluminum poles in the front had collapsed.
Jordan Carr 17:14
Wow so it really like when it pressed down, did it press down hard or was it just
John Mionczynski 17:19
Well I think it thought it was a solid object and when I hit it, it wanted to wheel around and grab something well and do that. Didn't realize the tent was flimsy, and just went over the top of me.
Kris Hampton 17:38
So John, unnerved, crawled out of his destroyed tent, started a fire and sat there with his gun at the ready. And he could hear the slow steady breathing of the creature in the shadows, just on the other side of that stand of pines. And pretty soon, the creature began throwing pine cones at John, more than 20 of them. It just wanted him to go away.
So the next morning, John reports the encounter to Game and Fish.
John Mionczynski 18:20
When I told him this story, he had a little bit of a smile on his face. But he got up from his desk and he went around to his office door and he closed it so the secretary wouldn't hear what we were talking about. And he said while you were up there, I've been getting reports in this office and the newspaper has been publishing reports of people seeing some big hairy primate running around in the mountains in your area.
Jordan Carr 18:45
Is that in the Lander journal?
John Mionczynski 18:47
Yes, it was in the Lander Journal.
Jordan Carr 18:48
Really?!
John Mionczynski 18:49
So you can go find those archives you will see these articles from various different people with different backgrounds saying they saw what some people were calling them Bigfoot.
Kris Hampton 19:00
And it wasn't just the Lander Journal. The story got picked up nationwide. So pretty soon, the office was being flooded by calls from hunters wanting to know where the most recent sightings were, so they could take home the ultimate trophy. The agency suspected that someone in a gorilla suit was going to end up shot and killed. So they hired John to investigate the reports. One of them was a young man in a cabin at the foot of the mountains, who claimed he had shot the creature. At the cabin, John found a clump of hair which he sent to one of the pioneers of forensic anthropology, Walter Bigby, the results came back, primate. John was convinced, and he still is he still on the hunt, and he's been gathering evidence for the past 50 years. We'll be right back.
Emily Holland 20:04
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Kris Hampton 20:50
Okay, this is about where the skeptic in you starts questioning things. Me too. I mean, many of the arguments in favor of Sasquatch go like this. There are just too many stories from too many cultures that are similar. Yes, there are. I agree. But we've gone both ways. Most of those cultures have both these big hairy humanoid creatures, as well as a myth about little people. It's our tendency to just slightly exaggerate a creature that we understand best ourselves to create something scary. It's a great tactic. And the arguments against Bigfoot say that by now we'd have conclusive proof, a carcass, a skeleton, better video. I mean, we all have high powered video cameras in our pockets. However, we're finding new species all the time, we often find species that we've thought extinct for decades. And if a thing isn't willing to get close to you, it's pretty hard to get a good video of it. Gigi thought this thing might be a moose, right? Well, I've spent a lot of time in the woods and the mountains in Moose habitat. I've only seen a couple and not for long enough to get my phone out. And the only grizzly I've seen I did take photos of. But I'm so far away from it, that it just looks like a brown lump. There are entire websites dedicated to documenting Wolverine sightings. And we know exactly where the Wolverines live. My point is, the wilderness is much bigger and often more remote than we can imagine. From inside our comfortable houses or while walking on our well groomed trails. There are things out there that experts can't yet explain. And maybe there's a perfectly good explanation. But it's possible that that explanation is that there's actually some sort of North American ape out there. But we got sidetracked. We were right in the middle of a story that's just about to take a wild turn.
Gigi Holley 23:34
and I'm like, Okay, well, I gotta make a decision. Either I get down there and I get past it. And it's still very far from the trail, but it's close enough that I'm like, like, this is weird. By the time I get down there, it could be down, you know, closer to the trail. If I lose sight of it, like I don't, I don't know. So I'm like trying to make a decision like do I just turn around and go back or do I just keep going and I just keep going because that's me. I have my dog, everything's gonna be fine.
So I started heading down the switchbacks trying to keep my eye on it lose lose sight of it. I get down to the like the corduroy road and I want to get a photo so I squat down and I take a photo and then I'm like, I wonder if I can like see it so I turn around and it's standing there I don't know if this is the right time to tell you this.
But it has a red shirt on.
Kris Hampton 24:55
It has a shirt on?
Gigi Holley 25:00
It was just like red all of a sudden it was like had a bright red, something on and all of a sudden I'm like, oh, no, it's a human and I more panic than I had been before. I'm like, This is creepy. I gotta go. So I like don't even think to take a photo of it. Because now in my head, it's a human. And I like run away.
My dog is not the type of animal that leaves my side, he hangs out with me. I can call him off a deer, he doesn't chase things. He doesn't disappear on me. Unless you're fishing, he's scared of fishing poles. And he disappears, my dog disappears on me. And I'm like, trying to pick my way across this stream and get over and like, I'm like booking it like trying to get far away from this because, you know, random people out there make me nervous. There wasn't a single car at the trailhead. And there's this like, potentially this human thing hanging out up here. And I'm like, What the heck. And also, one thing about my dog he barks at people, like on the trail like he's a barker. He's like, they're here. They're here. They're there in front of us. Do you see them? Um, uh, yeah, they're two feet from me, buddy. I see him. And he's quiet with animals. He's the stalker kind of dog. Like, should I chase it? Should I not. But he's a barker at humans. And he hadn't made a sound. And I'm like, Remy? Trying not to be loud children and be like, quiet, like, get out of there. And eventually, it takes me starting to yell like, I'm yelling for him at the end. Like, where the heck did my dog go? Like, this is weird. He comes around the corner of the snow cornice that was looking out over that lake. He comes from that direction. Like, what do you mean me yell that thing probably heard me. I don't go. And I'm like, let's go. So I just walk really fast. Seven more miles in til I make it to a campsite. He's sitting there staring up the trail. And I'm just like getting more and more nervous. Like, what the heck was that? Like? I had a red shirt out at the but it like swam in the lake and I am a cold. Like, I love to jump in cold water and I would not have jumped in that water. Like it was too cold. And and I did not sleep very well that night, let's just say that.
Kris Hampton 27:53
And you didn't see the thing again?
Gigi Holley 27:55
I didn't see it again.
Kris Hampton 27:57
Did you walk back out the same way?
Gigi Holley 28:00
I did a loop. So I had my reservation pass. You need one to drive into Dickinson Park. And I hiked out on the reservation on a trail that's not, it wasn't meant to it wasn't a trail anymore. It was dead fallen. It was terrible. I don't recommend it. I was really nervous. I don't like to push myself when I'm hiking. I'm out there to enjoy myself. I'm not out there to run a marathon. I'm not an exercise person. I'm a enjoy my life person.
Kris Hampton 28:37
Those can't be the same?
Gigi Holley 28:39
But they're not for me. I don't want to hurt my knees. You know, I like to go nice and slow. But um, so that day I had done 14 and I had two more nights to sleep out there. But the next day I hiked all the way out. I just went straight out because if I were to camp it would be like directly north, like less than a mile of where I had the sighting just on the north side instead of the south side. And I just just had that feeling all day. Yeah, there's just something about this spot right now that I I'm gonna leave.
Kris Hampton 29:23
In all the time you've spent back there since, have you seen any kind of thing that made you wonder or sign or flash of a red shirt in the trees?
Gigi Holley 29:35
I think that was in 2018 This is when I had the sighting in June. This spring. I did it again in June, almost within the week that I saw it in 2018. I called it facing my fears. I was like I'm gonna go back out there. I've been backpacking alone since then just not in that area. And I was like, I'm gonna go, back out there and camp in the exact spot where I saw it like, I'm gonna go to the beach and camp there. And I was gonna face my fears and just do it. And there was too much snow and I couldn't get to where I wanted to be.
Kris Hampton 30:14
It was probably there sunning itself on the beach.
Gigi Holley 30:18
Like couldn't get my dog got too old and we couldn't post all through waist high snow anymore.
Kris Hampton 30:26
Why on earth do you think a Bigfoot would be wearing a shirt?
Gigi Holley 30:32
I have theories.
Kris Hampton 30:33
Tell me. And I'm asking you this, because in preparation for this, I did some research. And there are lots of stories of Bigfoot wearing clothes.
Gigi Holley 30:45
Oh, I did not know that. There are a lot. I haven't done any research. I just, Hmm. Interesting. So I know of, and I've helped rescue packs that have gotten like kicked off of horses. And, you know, when you're out, you just lose things. I mean, I've even lost one of my favorite shirts out there. And I feel terrible, because because I don't want to leave anything out in the wilderness ever. But sometimes you just can't help it because you lose things. It's so if Sasquatch is out there to find things. Then, if I was Sasquatch, and I didn't want to be bothered by humans, the best thing to do would be to look like a human just knowing like, oh, when I'm in the backcountry, and I don't want to be around humans, like the last thing I'm going to do is camp near somebody else. Or, or oh, there's somebody let me walk towards them. Like they're way off trail. Let me go find them. Like you leave people alone when you're out in the wilderness. So I mean, it worked for me. It put on a red shirt, and I left it alone. Had I had my camera, like at that point in my life? And it was like a bear. I might have been like, well, maybe, you know, there's, I don't want to get too close to a bear in the wilderness all by myself.
Kris Hampton 32:11
But you need that photo of a bear wearing a shirt.
Gigi Holley 32:12
I might want to get that photo and like, I did not do that. I like ran away from it.
Kris Hampton 32:21
And it's true for years. Many of the stories of Sasquatch sightings included a plaid shirt. And what better thing to wear if you want to blend in to the humans frequenting the wilderness but a plaid shirt? Bigfoot could have come to the Outdoor Retailer trade show, and not a single soul would have noticed. And as it turns out, here in Wyoming Game and Fish wardens wear red shirts. Imagine the number of people trying to specifically avoid red shirts.
Do you think? Or why do you think? First off? Are you a believer? I'm sure you are at this point, right?
Gigi Holley 33:11
I mean, just because I can't put it down to that was a human the whole time. Or that was a bear the whole time. Like neither of those makes sense to me.
Kris Hampton 33:22
Right.
Gigi Holley 33:23
Like, watching it do all of those funky things. The photos that I have. I'm like, That's so much of a human figure that I like can't put it down to an animal anymore. And I don't believe it came down in the saddle, not where the trail was. I mean, this was off, way off trail. And I'm not saying people can't hike off trail that happens plenty. But that area, and that early in the spring with that much snow up there, pain in the butt. Like unless you're actually camping out there. But why wasn't there a car at the trailhead? I just like it doesn't make any sense to me.
Kris Hampton 34:12
Well, you've had a lot of time to think about it.
Gigi Holley 34:14
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 34:15
Do you have theories on why if these creatures exist, we don't have definitive evidence?
Gigi Holley 34:26
I mean, I love the idea of magic. Things that we'll just because we don't have proof we just don't believe in and I think the mountains are magic every time I'm up there, there. It's just magical just being there. So why can't there be something magic about them?
Kris Hampton 34:51
Do you think it wonders about you?
Gigi Holley 34:53
I hope so. No, I hope we think about each other.
Kris Hampton 34:59
I love that.
Huge thanks to Gigi Holley for telling us her story. She shoots breathtakingly beautiful photos of the mountains and wild places that she loves. And you can check those out at the link right there in your show notes.
Special thanks to the Dear Lander podcast for letting us use their interview with John Mionczynski. Their podcast is a really special look into the characters that are the life force of our little mountain town. You can find them everywhere you get podcasts.
At the link to our website, you'll find a few fun videos and a great profile article of wildlife biologist John Mionczynski, who is certainly one of the most interesting people on the planet. You'll also find the Patterson Gimlin film that started the Bigfoot craze. And Gigi's photos from that day, deep in the winds. You can decide for yourself what you think that dark figure actually is. As for me, do I believe? You know, I guess I sort of do. I think Gigi has the right idea. Why not believe in magic? Why not believe that our wild places can still be so wild that we don't know everything about what's out there. Bigfoot represents imagination. And I'm all for that. And honestly, as I went down rabbit hole after rabbit hole after rabbit hole, I kept coming across the same thing. Most of the groups out there looking for and studying Sasquatch, are not the hunters who were calling the Game and Fish office back in 1972. Instead, their conservation groups, they've decided that on the chance that there is some species out there, some North American ape that we haven't gotten proof of yet that they need to save its habitat before we destroy it. That I can get behind. I'm Kris Hampton. You've been listening to Strange Nature from Plug Tone Outdoors.
